The treif-restaurant birthday-party blues
The birthday girl is Jewish, so she lured us in with a promise of a Carvel ice cream cake for dessert.
Trying to be a good girl, I ate in the nearest kosher dairy restaurant and showed up at 9:30 PM, as instructed, for the cake, only to find the party-goers still scarfing down pizza and about to order another one. I was there for roughly 45 more minutes before the kosher cake was finally served.
How long can a person nurse an iced tea? Can you say "awkward," "conspicuous," and possibly "holier-than-thou?" :(
Some of the more kashrut-observant guests were ordering salads instead of pizza or other cooked food. One woman even showed up with a shaker-bottle of Miller's (kosher) grated cheese and a small bag of walnuts in her tote, in a kind of kosher version of "bring your own."
I'll have to decide just how kosher I want to be when joining friends in non-kosher restaurants. (A salad with olive or vegetable oil, no vinegar, no lemon, no onions, no croutons, anyone? With cheese or not with cheese, that is the question.)
Trying to be a good girl, I ate in the nearest kosher dairy restaurant and showed up at 9:30 PM, as instructed, for the cake, only to find the party-goers still scarfing down pizza and about to order another one. I was there for roughly 45 more minutes before the kosher cake was finally served.
How long can a person nurse an iced tea? Can you say "awkward," "conspicuous," and possibly "holier-than-thou?" :(
Some of the more kashrut-observant guests were ordering salads instead of pizza or other cooked food. One woman even showed up with a shaker-bottle of Miller's (kosher) grated cheese and a small bag of walnuts in her tote, in a kind of kosher version of "bring your own."
I'll have to decide just how kosher I want to be when joining friends in non-kosher restaurants. (A salad with olive or vegetable oil, no vinegar, no lemon, no onions, no croutons, anyone? With cheese or not with cheese, that is the question.)
posted by Shira Salamone at 7:55 AM
15 Comments:
It's worse when there is treif served at a specifically Jewish event like a bar or bat mitzvah.
I am now Orthodox, and only eat 100% certified stuff, but back when I was Conservative I ate veggie out, but refused to eat anything other than completely under hashcagah kosher if I was at a Synagogue event, simcha or anything that was under Jewish auspices.
Oy. Been there, done that. In case you haven't read my posts on the subject of kashrut in a synagogue, see here, and follow the links.
Years ago, one of our Conservative former rabbis refused to join the Jewish War Veterans because they frequently got together in non-kosher restaurants. He was right. What's any Jewish organization's excuse for going to a non-kosher restaurant when a kosher restaurant is just a subway and/or bus ride away?
Link correction attempt:
here
I think a lot of this is in your head. Unless you have or are then making a big deal out of it, no one is monitoring exactly what you eat and when you eat it. You remind me of the recent converts and BTs who are convinced everyone is staring at them in shul. It isn't happening, really.
You had just had a meal at another restaurant. So when someone asks, "Want a slice of pizza" reply "No thanks - I'm not hungry." I find that is even easier to do at restaurants than at other people's homes. In their homes, people might say "Just a bite - I made it myself." That isn't an issue in the restaurant.
If you say "No thanks, it isn't kosher" you are opening up a discussion that I think you don't want to be involved in. So just don't say that.
My wife eats plain cucumber and tomato salads out in trief restaurants. Neither vegetable requires bug checking, so the only issue is the knife, and most restaurants will use a clean knife for chopping vegetables. I don't do that - I am afraid that slope is too slippery for me, and that when the waiter says "We don't make salads to order sir" I might order something else. But neither of us would hesitate to simply enter a non-kosher restaurant in order to join some friends who were eating there.
"I think a lot of this is in your head."
Probably. :)
"You had just had a meal at another restaurant." No, I "was having problems with my computer and had to stay late, so I grabbed a bite because I was starving." What, I'm going to say I'm not hungry because I just ate at a kosher restaurant because I don't think there's any good excuse *not* to eat kosher in Manhattan, with its dozens of kosher restaurants?
"I find that is even easier to do at restaurants than at other people's homes. In their homes, people might say "Just a bite - I made it myself." That isn't an issue in the restaurant."
Good point. Myself, I'd take the bite, if the food in question were not "hard-core treif" (pork or shellfish).
"If you say "No thanks, it isn't kosher" you are opening up a discussion that I think you don't want to be involved in. So just don't say that."
Agreed. Didn't say it, and will also try not to do so in the future.
"My wife eats plain cucumber and tomato salads out in trief restaurants. Neither vegetable requires bug checking, so the only issue is the knife, and most restaurants will use a clean knife for chopping vegetables."
That's a good idea.
I had this conversation too--and someone pointed out that the knife could have been used to chop an onion for someone else's salad before. I don't know what would be the status of the salad--and it's hard to pull in bedieveds when you weren't in the restaurant inadvertently.
I personally bring my own food and eat it at restaurants during work gatherings. I've rarely had issues (although there is more weirdness when half the co-workers present are non-observant Jews and I skip out early to get home in time for Shabbat).
I found that the easiest thing to do is to do my own thing and not explain. People are all on weird diets anyway.
"What, I'm going to say I'm not hungry because I just ate at a kosher restaurant because I don't think there's any good excuse *not* to eat kosher in Manhattan, with its dozens of kosher restaurants?"
No, you don't say that, you say, "no thanks, I'm not hungry." If they pester you why, you say that you just came from dinner. If they really keep going, you had prior plans. Seriously, does everyone in your life suck that much that they can't accept "no thank you" to food in a restaurant.
I remember going to a friend's wedding a few years ago. The wedding was catered Kosher, but the breakfast the next morning was not. We went to breakfast first, then went to the big breakfast to see everyone. I think that we found some cut fruit, orange juice, and coffee, and called it a day.
One friend asked why weren't eating anything, and I said that we already had breakfast. A kind of clueless friend was shocked by thing, one that knew that we'd become observant pointed out that we kept kosher (while eating his bacon and eggs), and that ended that.
Re: onion and the knife
My understanding is that the sharp foods "absorbs" flavors, so an onion cut with a meat/dairy knife is meat/dairy, but that doesn't mean that a knife that cut an onion can magically transmit to the vegetables. Now, I guess in theory if they didn't wash the knife between onion and vegetables, the "treif" onion juice would be a problem, but the onion "juice" is not the desired product, nor more than 1/60th.
OTOH: if the restaurant is going between different vegetables/food products and chopping them without rinsing the knife, you shouldn't be worried about kashrut, you should be worried about food poisoning and contact the health department.
When at a work function where you need to have food in front of you, it isn't that hard to find something safe to eat (dry salad, no onions, no peppers). I never go out socially to non Kosher restaurants (sometimes bar/restaurant combos for the bar), but in the past, business sometimes required it.
For a woman, I can't possibly see the problem in turning down pizza. As a guy, a dry salad draws some inquisitive expressions, but for a woman, not seeing the issue.
" . . . you had prior plans."
Miami Al, that's a better line than any that I've that I would have thought of. Thanks.
"OTOH: if the restaurant is going between different vegetables/food products and chopping them without rinsing the knife, you shouldn't be worried about kashrut, you should be worried about food poisoning and contact the health department."
Oy. True. So maybe I won't worry about onions, provided that they're not on my own plate.
"something safe to eat (dry salad, no onions, no peppers)."
I can't eat jalapeno peppers anyway. Do bell (sweet) peppers create any kashrut issues?
"For a woman, I can't possibly see the problem in turning down pizza. As a guy, a dry salad draws some inquisitive expressions, but for a woman, not seeing the issue."
That's probably true. If they're using "plain" lettuce, I can eat it dry (and frequent do) without a problem, but if they get fancy with the "baby greens," "field greens," or any of that curly stuff, which I find too bitter, I'll probably cheat and ask for plain olive oil or vegie oil as a dressing.
"I personally bring my own food . . . "
RivkaYael, see my next post.
Shira,
While contemporary Orthodox practice is to demand supervision for all oils, it isn't clear that a plain oil matters. In terms of lettuce, while we obviously inspect it for bugs, as long as you are looking at what you eat and not intentionally eating a bug, it's not really a problem per se... I wouldn't think that you invalidated your keeping Kosher, even if it isn't ideal behavior.
Regarding peppers, ask a Rav. I have heard from someone knowledgable that green bell peppers present a problem, but I don't know if that is normative or chumrah.
"Regarding peppers, ask a Rav."
Done. According to Kosher Quest, "No cerification, soaking or checking [is] required" for peppers.
Right, the question with peppers is if they are a "sharp" vegetable like onions/garlic, or a normal vegetable like a potato. They clearly aren't in the infested category like lettuce.
As more and more of my social network is other observant Jews, the issue comes up less and less, but you can absolutely find a way to show up and politely nibble on something and have a beverage with your friends without compromising kashrut.
The trick to not being holier than thou is NOT GETTING INTO IT. Never discuss politics or religion in public. Why aren't you eating there? You already ate. Why did you already eat? You had a prior engagement.
The fact that you had a prior engagement to eat by yourself nearby, enjoy a cup of coffee, and then join for cake because you keep Kosher is really nobodies business but your own.
Religious observance is not holier than thou, religious exhibitionism is.
I can't eat jalapeno peppers, which are certainly "sharp" like onions and garlic and might raise a kashrut question. But I don't see anything "sharp"-testing about sweet (bell) peppers, and honestly can't imagine why they'd create a kashrut issue.
"The fact that you had a prior engagement to eat by yourself nearby, enjoy a cup of coffee, and then join for cake because you keep Kosher is really nobodies business but your own."
Religious observance is not holier than thou, religious exhibitionism is."
Well put, Miami Al. I'll keep the "prior engagement" excuse in mind for future occasions in which I find myself in a similar situation.
It seems to me that keeping kosher out while socializing is a lot harder than doing it while alone.
So it seems to me that if the former drives you crazy, you might want to just do the latter for awhile and place the former in the "not yet" category. (In the interest of full disclosure, I note that I haven't even taken on the latter, though I do find myself moving in that direction- then again, I live in a city with no kosher restaurants).
But obviously only you know what you can take on.
Woodrow, keeping kosher while socializing is certainly a much bigger challenge for me than just eating out. I may just settle for a cold salad with an oil-only dressing.
Concerning eating out only in kosher restaurants when the choice is ours, I'm ready to commit to that one only where kosher restaurants are available. I'm not ready to schlep an ice chest/cooler or survive on tuna or packaged meals when traveling. I don't blame anyone who lives in an area where there aren't any kosher restaurants for eating dairy "out." I've done that myself for many years, as there are no kosher restaurants within walking distance. I only gave it up recently because, with dozens of kosher restaurants available to me simply by getting on the subway, I didn't see that *I* have any excuse.
Post a Comment
<< Home